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Thread: Explaining the CERTAINTY in 'Mutawatir in Meaning' Reports

  1. #671

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    Quote Originally Posted by bro-man2 View Post
    If it is argued that definite is definite and it is all one and the same for all, and in addition to this we have brothers here saying that in light of that principle any so called ikhtilaf on the tawatur of a Hadith is either down to factors such as mistakes by the scholar, incorrect understanding of reality, not having full access to the sources etc but the Hadith is still tawatur, we need to ask is this therefore the same excuses which would be applied on someone who said this about the tawatur of the Qur'an?

    In the furu'/details of 'aqeedah and this is something known from the time of th sahaaba(RadiAllahu 'anhum)
    Salam,

    In reference to the 2 paragraphs above,

    1) Has there ever been any ikhtilaf on tawatur of Quran?
    2) Which Aqeedah matter did Sahaba (ra to all) differ on?

    Jzk

  2. #672

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    Quote Originally Posted by abdul-ali View Post
    I will try and continue soon with the remainder questions.
    Jazak Allahu khayr for answering the questions. I will wait for the rest of the answers before responding insha'Allah.

  3. #673

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    Quote Originally Posted by Fallujah_Sniper View Post
    My brother, what are you saying? Please re-read you comment above and notice the clear contradiction yourself. I will not say any more.....
    Akhi, is there a need for these types of comments?

    If I thought there was a clear contradiction in what I said, would I say it?

    I am saying there is a difference between validity and correctness.

    If you disagree, just say so and explain why, and we can discuss. These melodramatic statements don't benefit anyone.

    My brother, I have already answered the question in regards to 'if scholars differ on a hadith being mutawatir or not. I have demonstrated this in the example I gave you (which you are asking for a real life example) but my example is sufficient.
    I am not asking for a real life example. I am asking for a complete answer.

    All you said was that if scholars differ on a hadith's being mutawatir, one of the two opinions is wrong and one of the scholars has erred. I'm asking for the practical implications of this. Which of the scholars is right and which is wrong? How do we figure out who is right and who is wrong? What is the implication for the one who is wrong? It's one thing to say, 'If the hadith is actually mutawatir...the the one who said otherwise is wrong, and if it is not, then the the one who said it is is wrong', but the only way we know whether a particular hadith is mutawatir or not is by the judgment of those in a position to assess the chains and conditions and determine whether the criteria of tawatur is met, who are the scholars. But they themselves differ in their judgment. Do you see how it becomes a circular argument to then simply argue that 'if it is mutawatir, then X, and if it is not, then Y' because the only way to determine this is make recourse to the judgment of scholars.

    In other words, let me simplify this. Consider the following:

    1. Let's say we have hadith X, a particular hadith.

    2. We agree on the theory: that if it is mutawatir, it benefits certainty, if not, it benefits preponderance. Further, as far as its reality goes, it can either be mutawatir or not mutawatir, it cannot be both at the same time.

    3. Now, how do we know whether it is mutawatir or not?

    4. This requires an assessment of the number of chains as well as other factors in order to come up with a qualitative judgment as to whether the reality of the hadith's reporting rationally precludes collusion on a lie/mistake.

    5. Who can make such a judgment? Clearly, it is not for the lay person, only scholars qualified in the relevant fields (hadith and usul mainly) can make the judgment.

    6. Therefore, scholars will make the judgment, and thereby people will know whether it is mutawatir or not. [Note: the judgment is not what it is because of the scholars, rather it is only known by their judgment].

    Before moving on, I'd like to ask (both you and abdul-a, since this will be key to our discussion as it continues) whether you agree with these six points? Yes/No will do, but if no, please explain what exactly you disagree with.

    Now - at this stage presuming we agree on this broad outline - what happens in the case that the scholars come up with different judgements? Some say the hadith is mutawatir and others say it is not. This is the question.

    Your answer has been, 'well it depends on whether it is in fact mutawatir or not', which is circular, because it takes us back to point 3, above, and all that will happen is we move from point 3 to point 6, and back at the same issue: the scholars differ.

    I hope that clarifies my point.

  4. #674

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    Quote Originally Posted by Saifullah1924 View Post
    Salam,

    In reference to the 2 paragraphs above,

    1) Has there ever been any ikhtilaf on tawatur of Quran?
    2) Which Aqeedah matter did Sahaba (ra to all) differ on?

    Jzk
    Wasalam brother
    Brother have you answered my previous questions to you when I responded to your previous questions???
    Last edited by bro-man2; 23-02-2012 at 12:32.

  5. #675

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    Salam,
    4. Explain how the example of the mushaf of Ibn Mas'ud shows that something cannot be definite for some, but not others.
    The context of this statement 'something being definite for some one and not for others' came about when asked about an example presented by scholars for 'tawatur in meaning', to the one advocating 'tawatur in meaning' as definite, whether he considered it definite so that it could be shown how it was not so.

    The answer should have been either yes it is, no or i don't know if it is. Instead the answer came that it is definite for some and not for others, which implied that matters (i.e. the thing being studied) can be definite for some and not for others which lead to the pages of explaining the rational world around us is not like that. Although this statement out of context could also mean that people can understand things differently, but as I explained in my answers that this (i.e. people's understanding) wasn't the issue, rather it was the concept of tawatur in meaning and the specific example itself, and thus this caused a sidetracking from the question.

    So the Qur'an is a good example to show that even when Ibn Mas'ood (ra) disagreed about some chapters, the tawatur compilation of it corrected him and we do not say that it was definite for others and not for him at that time, as we are not studying the people's opinions as the subject matter here.

    Since then some matters have become clearer al-hamdu-lillah, and I came to know that you agree that a matter is either definite or not and it is not dependent on peoples understanding:

    Quote Originally Posted by Ibn_Badr
    I am not saying that something being definite depends on people's judgment, and no, if someone judges the Qur'an as indefinite, this will not be accepted, to state the obvious.
    With regards your last question Ijtihad and Taqleed and dealing with Thanni matters, then I think this is another topic, and better to open another thread on it. I would like to discuss on it as well as it is important and a cause of much disunity in the Ummah who differ over thanni matters and then accuse each other, but leave this for you or any one else to do if it is felt that it needs discussing now.

    w/s

  6. #676
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    Jazakallah Khayrun for everyone?s engagement in this thread.

    As the discussion has now gone full circle several times and the position of all sides of the argument have been listed repeatedly with many diversions, this thread will now be closed.

    Some closing remarks with regards to what has transpired in this discussion on the core of the subject:

    ? The Tawatur of Manawi (the establishment of knowledge to be certain through uncertain evidences which accumulate a definite meaning) does not yield ilm al-yaqeen, decisive knowledge. It is disputed even by its adopters, as demonstrated in this thread, where they have acknowledged that a knowledge established upon the Tawatur of Manawi can be definite for some and not for others. This has been illustrated by the example of Ijma al-Ummah, which reaches Tawatur in Manawi (definite in meaning) according to its advocates who themselves, at the same time, reject the meaning in favour of a different interpretation.

    ? A knowledge that can be legitimately disputed or differed upon does not establish decisive knowledge, ilm al-yaqeen, which is a requirement for any knowledge to be considered as Aqeedah.

    ? An acknowledgement of the uncertainty in Mutawatir Manawi and how it leads to the differences in its application, even by its adopters, while still claiming it yields ilm al-Yaqeen has naturally led to the serious errors documented here by its proponets due to their attempts to reconcile two irreconcilable contradictions. For example, denying the universally understood concept of a Definite (Qata?ie) and attempting to redefine it in a way that makes it subjective to any individual and then attempting to justify their redefined meaning of definite through various off-topic diversionary questions.

    Another is the attempt to redefine the concept of Tawatur in Meaning, which is the accumulation of indefinite evidences in transmission but it is said that the repeated same ONE meaning found in them makes the matter definite, to the meaning being indefinite while the indefinite by transmission reports now become definite ? completely contradicting the concept itself.

    ? These erroneous justifications present a dangerous implication for the Islamic Aqeedah by making it open to difference and interpretation for everyone to have faith in what they deemed as definite. If this were to occur, it would result in the fragmentation of the Ummah who would then be characterized by people embracing various Aqeedahs as opposed to the same one Aqeedah which has unified them as one Ummah for 1400 years. It also would destroy the strength and uniqueness of the Islamic Aqeedah, which is easily established by any human as rationally definite with no element of doubt, subjectivity, inference or interpretation, by reducing it to just another faith amongst the world?s faiths.

    In conclusion, the uncertainty in explaining Mutawatir of Manawi, the original on-topic discussion of this thread, has been explained with both sides of the argument being available in this thread for any researcher to make his own conclusions.

    As-Salaamu Alaykum Warahmatullahi Wabarakatu

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