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Thread: Explaining the CERTAINTY in 'Mutawatir in Meaning' Reports

  1. #1

    Default Explaining the CERTAINTY in 'Mutawatir in Meaning' Reports

    Reported by A "Whoever lies about me intentionally let him take his place in Hellfire and he will punished in the Grave"

    Reported by B "Whoever lies about me intentionally let him take his place in Hellfire and whoever cheats in the market is not one of us"

    Reported by C "Whoever lies about me intentionally let him take his place in Hellfire and he will be one of the losers"

    Reported by D "Whoever lies about me intentionally let him take his place in Hellfire so don't tell lies"

    Reported by E "Whoever lies about me intentionally let him take his place in Hellfire and guard your private parts"


    The opponents of Mutawatir Manawi will state that if they received reports in the style above, the part of the narration that states "Whoever lies about me intentionally let him take his place in Hellfire..." is not definitive because it the Hadiths are all seperate Ahad narrations!?


    Yet if they appeared in the form below they would accept it as a definitive Aqeedah matter, even though the above Hadith state the same information and just provide information on additional subject matters.


    Reported by 1 "Whoever lies about me intentionally let him take his place in Hellfire"

    Reported by 2 "Whoever lies about me intentionally let him take his place in Hellfire"

    Reported by 3 "Whoever lies about me intentionally let him take his place in Hellfire"

    Reported by 4 "Whoever lies about me intentionally let him take his place in Hellfire"

    Reported by 5 "Whoever lies about me intentionally let him take his place in Hellfire"


    In conclusion the truth is that the reports regarding the subject matter "Whoever lies about me intentionally let him take his place in Hellfire..." are proven decisively in both examples.

    For some strange unknown reason the existence of extra information, extra subject matters, or the exact same information provided with a word spoken differently here or there that has no bearing on the subject contained in the authentic report.... renders these matters devoid of decisiveness according to the opponents of Mutawatir Manawi.

    Only robotic word-for-word narations are acceptable to these people, regardless of if the reports are basically saying the same thing.

  2. #2

    Default

    Had you been serious in presenting your case you would have done so in the already established thread. Instead you have come to make mischief, with your blatant ignorance. If you had shame you would have atleast attempted to answer the questions posed to you to explain yourself in the thread on 'athabul-qabr'.

  3. #3

    Default

    abdul-ali, you are the greatest avoider of basic arguments. Who loves using "this is not the topic for this thread" as an excuse to avoid answering any point which you are incapable of refuting.

    Thank you for your intellectually bankrupt comment. Ironically however your comment has nothing to do with the topic of this thread.

  4. #4

    Default

    Salaamalaykum,

    We know that man himself is prone to make Errors. He is not infallible and can slip up.

    If we look at the topic of mutawatir manawi, we can see that it has been adopted due the fact that multiple singular (ahad) narrations , which have a common theme, have been collated to form a Definitive (Qati) outcome.

    If one proposes that Mutawatir hadiths are transmitted by individuals (who by themselves don't constitute certainty), then this is the same as Ahad plus Ahad plus Ahad = Mutawatir.

    Can someone please elaborate/explain this?

    Jzk

  5. #5

    Default

    Salaam, this is a topic I could never get my head around.

    So I'd like to start the discussion and move it in the right direction inshallah. A few simple questions.

    1. What does the word mutawatir mean in the context of what were speaking about here?

    2. Is there more than 1 meaning? Hence therefore different types of mutawatir?

    3. How did the scholars define mutawatir in this context?

    Jzk
    Last edited by ALI-HEH-HAQ-ALI; 03-12-2011 at 03:38.
    On the day of khaibar ONLY imam ALI (ra) could penetrate the fort of the jews when no other companion could and on the day of the battle of the trench ONLY imam ALI (ra) accepted the challenge of the 9ft giant who asked the muslims who would dare fight him!

  6. #6

    Default

    Salaam
    Difference between mutawatir manawi and mutawatir lafzi can be understood from the following:

    A person comes and tells you that school was closed on monday
    Another person comes and tells you it was closed on tuesday
    Another person tells you it was closed on wednesday
    Another person tells you it was closed on thursday
    Another person tells you it was closed on friday

    Now proponents of mutawatir manawi will say that the part which is mutawatir is that "School was closed", however you can see that all these reports are ahad and none of them is mutawatir because each one of the report is doubtful as each one is related to a different event and only narrated by one person. The concept of mutawatir manawi means nothing as far as establishing certainity of reports is concerned.

    So Ahad+Ahad+Ahad+... is not equal to mutawatir

    The real mutawatir narration i.e. mutawatir lafzi will be of the following form:

    A person comes and tells you that school was closed on monday
    Another person comes and tells you it was closed on monday
    Another person tells you it was closed on monday
    Another person tells you it was closed on monday
    Another person tells you it was closed on monday

    The above narration is mutawatir because it is related to a single event and has multiple chains which make the narration certain, i.e. you will be certain that the school was closed on monday.
    Last edited by Observer; 03-12-2011 at 08:05.

  7. #7

    Default

    ^... & those individuals were trustworthy & cudnt hav collaborated 2 lie abt the event. Those r other conditions of muttawatir.

  8. #8

    Default

    But if the part of the report which is the same in each report I.e, "the school was closed" isn't that definite but just the day it was closed not definite?
    On the day of khaibar ONLY imam ALI (ra) could penetrate the fort of the jews when no other companion could and on the day of the battle of the trench ONLY imam ALI (ra) accepted the challenge of the 9ft giant who asked the muslims who would dare fight him!

  9. #9

    Default

    Good question.

    But I think we cannot break up a sentence like this, we have to take it in totality. The fact that different days are being mentioned puts the whole of them into doubt.
    Last edited by Saifullah1924; 05-12-2011 at 19:53.

  10. #10

    Default

    Wouldn't you say the day the school is doubtful but not the issue of the chool being closed?
    On the day of khaibar ONLY imam ALI (ra) could penetrate the fort of the jews when no other companion could and on the day of the battle of the trench ONLY imam ALI (ra) accepted the challenge of the 9ft giant who asked the muslims who would dare fight him!

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