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Thread: The Messenger and Winning Over Hearts and Minds

  1. #11

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    You need to do more research and find out why IS consider shia are kafir. I am not their spokesman so I cannot speak on their behalf but if you listen to the audio interview of Omar Al-Shishani (by Tom Elliott) you will find that he mentions shia as kafir because of their deviant aqa'id. He also mentions that shia children are innocent and are not targeted by them.
    http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=2bf_1408148074

    Similarly if you watch what Abu Baara has to say about shias, you will find the same stand. He mentions Zaidi shias are muslims because they do not hold any such deviant aqa'id.
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Dna2TqAvQZQ

    Doesn't it seem strange to you that why a Shia cleric would support IS if they are all brutal killers who are hunting down shias (as per western propaganda):
    https://www.middleeastmonitor.com/ne...nni-revolution

    The point is that if IS consider shia as kafir, then you have to find out why they consider them kafir and unless you find the reason, it is wrong to form a view point about them.

    Wassalam
    And to Allah belongs all that is in the heavens and all that is in the earth. And all matters go back to Allah. (3:109)

  2. #12

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    Quote Originally Posted by Fallujah_Sniper View Post
    You are indeed correct when you mention that it would be a shame for Muslims to believe in the propaganda, but when you see video's where ISIS claim that the Shia are not Muslims and in fact worse that the Americans, then you don't need to be brainwashed by the propaganda.
    You did not answer my following question:
    What would you say to the release of 49 Indian Nurses, 46 Turkish Diplomats, 70 Kurdish children. Are these not acts of mercy by IS?
    And to Allah belongs all that is in the heavens and all that is in the earth. And all matters go back to Allah. (3:109)

  3. #13

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    Quote Originally Posted by Observer View Post
    You need to do more research and find out why IS consider shia are kafir. I am not their spokesman so I cannot speak on their behalf but if you listen to the audio interview of Omar Al-Shishani (by Tom Elliott) you will find that he mentions shia as kafir because of their deviant aqa'id. He also mentions that shia children are innocent and are not targeted by them.
    http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=2bf_1408148074

    Similarly if you watch what Abu Baara has to say about shias, you will find the same stand. He mentions Zaidi shias are muslims because they do not hold any such deviant aqa'id.
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Dna2TqAvQZQ

    Doesn't it seem strange to you that why a Shia cleric would support IS if they are all brutal killers who are hunting down shias (as per western propaganda):
    https://www.middleeastmonitor.com/ne...nni-revolution

    The point is that if IS consider shia as kafir, then you have to find out why they consider them kafir and unless you find the reason, it is wrong to form a view point about them.

    Wassalam
    Salaam bro Observer,

    As it seems that you are a ISIS supporter I think that it is more for you to find out ISIS stance on why they consider Shia Kaafir. The fact that they have a different view than yourself should motivate you to look into this more deeply. I can say that from the apparent they paint all the Shia's with the same brush in their video's and call them kaafir. So it may be worth for you to look into this a little further.

    In regards to the article you published...

    sn't it seem strange to you that why a Shia cleric would support IS if they are all brutal killers who are hunting down shias (as per western propaganda):
    https://www.middleeastmonitor.com/ne...nni-revolution


    ... Did you actually READ it? I don't think you did bro. Because if you had read it you would not have posted it and claimed that a shia scholar was supporting IS!!! In fact he is talking about the Sunni tribes and NOT THE FORIEGNERS ISIS.

    So please read the article (I would say again akhi but I am sure you didn't read it at all) and tell me what you think.

    Jazakallah Khayr
    "By Allah, I shall destroy the Romans and the friends of Satan with Khalid bin Al Walid."
    Caliph Abu Bakr. (633 A.D)

  4. #14

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    Quote Originally Posted by Observer View Post
    You did not answer my following question:
    What would you say to the release of 49 Indian Nurses, 46 Turkish Diplomats, 70 Kurdish children. Are these not acts of mercy by IS?
    I do not know whether this is a act of mercy or not as in regards to the Indian nurses, well there was no need to do anything with them I guess. In regards to the Turkish diplomats it is not clear whether this was a military operation, ransom was paid etc. And again, why would they kill 70 Kurdish children?

    When we are talking about mercy, it is to those who you may consider an enemy etc. The same way the Messenger (saw) showed mercy on the people of Mecca etc. Anyways, I don't think this discussion on mercy is going to get anywhere as even if we look at events when ISIS have been anything but merciful, (like the beheading of Alan Henning) you will brush it off as Western propaganda.

    Wasalaam
    "By Allah, I shall destroy the Romans and the friends of Satan with Khalid bin Al Walid."
    Caliph Abu Bakr. (633 A.D)

  5. #15

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    I don't agree with many things ISIS has apparently done. However, is it fair to judge it on selective, random incidents and then talk about lack of mercy? If we applied the same principles to the Khilafah in the past then the history could be distorted. When orientalists criticised excesses of the Caliph or infamous brutality of historical Islamic figures I recall the argument that HT used; don't confuse misapplication of Islam with non-implementation. So why is it fair game to judge ISIS by unverified footage of activist and without any context?

    The beheading timings and footage are questionable. They may or may not have happened as described. Parts were definitely fake.

    Who says anyone can act as merciful as the prophet (saw)? ISIS may have carried out actions that are brutal but to condemn it for that is to compare every single action with the opening of Mecca. There are other times when a more firm approach was taken. If ISIS isn't merciful, it's not really an issue because who is?

    During the first Gulf War there were lots of alleged atrocities alleged to have been carried out by the Iraqi army in Kuwait. It turned out that this was a story concocted by a public relations firm for the US Government. Who is to say that such a disinformation isn't being carried out to create hatred for a certain group of muslims?

  6. #16

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    Quote Originally Posted by open mind View Post
    I don't agree with many things ISIS has apparently done. However, is it fair to judge it on selective, random incidents and then talk about lack of mercy? If we applied the same principles to the Khilafah in the past then the history could be distorted. When orientalists criticised excesses of the Caliph or infamous brutality of historical Islamic figures I recall the argument that HT used; don't confuse misapplication of Islam with non-implementation. So why is it fair game to judge ISIS by unverified footage of activist and without any context?

    The beheading timings and footage are questionable. They may or may not have happened as described. Parts were definitely fake.

    Who says anyone can act as merciful as the prophet (saw)? ISIS may have carried out actions that are brutal but to condemn it for that is to compare every single action with the opening of Mecca. There are other times when a more firm approach was taken. If ISIS isn't merciful, it's not really an issue because who is?

    During the first Gulf War there were lots of alleged atrocities alleged to have been carried out by the Iraqi army in Kuwait. It turned out that this was a story concocted by a public relations firm for the US Government. Who is to say that such a disinformation isn't being carried out to create hatred for a certain group of muslims?
    Salaam bro.

    Some valid points there.

    I agree that some of those beheading videos are suspect, but what baffles me is that ISIS have not come out to deny that they were involved.

    Any idea why they haven't?
    "By Allah, I shall destroy the Romans and the friends of Satan with Khalid bin Al Walid."
    Caliph Abu Bakr. (633 A.D)

  7. #17

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    Quote Originally Posted by Fallujah_Sniper View Post
    Salaam bro Observer,

    As it seems that you are a ISIS supporter I think that it is more for you to find out ISIS stance on why they consider Shia Kaafir. The fact that they have a different view than yourself should motivate you to look into this more deeply. I can say that from the apparent they paint all the Shia's with the same brush in their video's and call them kaafir. So it may be worth for you to look into this a little further.
    If I have not been doing any research into the matter than how could I have posted this?

    It is not just for me to look into it but it is equally important for you to confirm before you attribute something to someone. So saying that IS labels all Shia as Kafir irrespective of their beliefs, you have to prove what you say.

    You did not comment on the audio and the video posted by me?

    In regards to the article you published...

    sn't it seem strange to you that why a Shia cleric would support IS if they are all brutal killers who are hunting down shias (as per western propaganda):
    https://www.middleeastmonitor.com/ne...nni-revolution


    ... Did you actually READ it? I don't think you did bro. Because if you had read it you would not have posted it and claimed that a shia scholar was supporting IS!!! In fact he is talking about the Sunni tribes and NOT THE FORIEGNERS ISIS.

    So please read the article (I would say again akhi but I am sure you didn't read it at all) and tell me what you think.
    You are wrong. I have read the article and there is no statement of his where he says ISIS are foreigners, it is mentioned in the article without any quotations and might as well be the understanding of the reporter. Moreover, everyone knows that ISIS is not foreigner. In fact he has said about the call by Al-Sistani to fight the rebels a "satanic Fatwa leading to bloodshed". Everyone knows that "Rebels" are being led by IS and Sistani gave his call to fight IS.

    Wassalam
    And to Allah belongs all that is in the heavens and all that is in the earth. And all matters go back to Allah. (3:109)

  8. #18

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    Quote Originally Posted by Fallujah_Sniper View Post
    I do not know whether this is a act of mercy or not as in regards to the Indian nurses, well there was no need to do anything with them I guess. In regards to the Turkish diplomats it is not clear whether this was a military operation, ransom was paid etc. And again, why would they kill 70 Kurdish children?

    When we are talking about mercy, it is to those who you may consider an enemy etc. The same way the Messenger (saw) showed mercy on the people of Mecca etc. Anyways, I don't think this discussion on mercy is going to get anywhere as even if we look at events when ISIS have been anything but merciful, (like the beheading of Alan Henning) you will brush it off as Western propaganda.
    You are so sure that IS is brutal, but are finding a hundred excuses to avoid calling even one of their actions as merciful. Just shows your bias in approaching the issue.

    You should know that any action like killing someone cannot be called good or bad by itself. The thing which decides whether it is good or bad is whether it was carried out according to sharia ruling or not. I have never brushed off any beheading as western propaganda, whereas you have been so much affected by western propaganda that you have forgot to apply this basic Islamic understanding to the actions been carried out by IS.
    And to Allah belongs all that is in the heavens and all that is in the earth. And all matters go back to Allah. (3:109)

  9. #19

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    Quote Originally Posted by Fallujah_Sniper View Post
    Salaam bro.

    Some valid points there.

    I agree that some of those beheading videos are suspect, but what baffles me is that ISIS have not come out to deny that they were involved.

    Any idea why they haven't?
    I think this is nothing but conspiracy theories, which can never be resolved.

    The point to consider is whether this impacts IS's status as the Islamic State in any way? No.
    States do kill criminals, spies, killers etc. so why the big fuss if IS did it? No one has cited any sharia ruling on what they did rather everyone is parroting the same baloney of they being brutal as being harped by Western Media.

    So what is the Sharia ruling regarding these killings? What is HT understanding on this? Or now all discussion is going to revolve around the vague concepts of mercy and brutality as defined by western media?
    Last edited by Observer; 18-10-2014 at 12:47.
    And to Allah belongs all that is in the heavens and all that is in the earth. And all matters go back to Allah. (3:109)

  10. #20

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    ISIS has not come out and denied that the beheadings are fake or real, in my opinion, because it has far more pressing concerns at the moment. Secondly, maybe it doesn't deem it necessary to comment on what the Western enemies think.

    Not commenting on an allegation is not proof of guilt.

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