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Thread: Scholars who made Manawi basis for Aqeedah

  1. #21

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    Quote Originally Posted by bro-man2 View Post
    Walaikum as-salaam brother

    In order to do what you ask me I need to be a muhadith and/or Mujtahid usuli with the knowledge of various sciences related to many sciences of the deen.

    I don't think such a responsability has ever been entrusted upon the layperson to prove their belief in such a way. Could I ask if this is the requirement of the Hizb upon their Shabab prior to adopting any creed from the ahadith? Allahu a'lam
    Assalam Alaycom

    The party has adopted that the Aqeedih must be decisive. so that any evidence we use to prove what we believe in must be decisive in both transmission and denotation.Therefore, we can discuss with you our evidences that prove our Aqeedih which I belive strongly it is same as your. Now, if you include or add something to this Aqeedih then it is your responsibility to prove it not me to refute it. Therefore, I can confidently say that the party as a whole and the members -actually the Ummah- can prove their Aqeedih.

    Salam

  2. #22

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    Quote Originally Posted by Saifullah1924 View Post
    Salaam,

    Taqlid pertains only to the realm of the shari'ah; there can be no taqlid / imitation in
    the matters of belief (usulu 'd-din). A Muslim must have Iman after attaining conviction of the fundamentals of the deen, through examination, contemplation and reflection.

    The Qur'an clearly condemns those who follow others blindly in matters of belief:

    And when it is said to them, "Come now to what Allah has sent down, and the Messenger," they say, "Enough for us is what we found our fathers doing". What, even if their fathers had knowledge of nothing and were not correctly guided? (5:104)

    Attaining knowledge (for Aqeedah) via Ijma as-Sahaba (ra) and Mutawatir Hadith is something already established in Islam. Ijma as-Sahaba (ra) is proven through Wahi and Mutawatir is proven via Rational evidence (daleel aqliya).

    In light of your point on takfeer for rejecting matters, then do you say this verse is qati'e dalalah for taqleed being haram in creed? If you do then do you make takfeer on those who say no taqleed is permitted in creed, as this goes against this verse?

    JazakAllahu khairan

  3. #23

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    Quote Originally Posted by Abu Kareem View Post
    Assalam Alaycom

    The party has adopted that the Aqeedih must be decisive. so that any evidence we use to prove what we believe in must be decisive in both transmission and denotation.Therefore, we can discuss with you our evidences that prove our Aqeedih which I belive strongly it is same as your. Now, if you include or add something to this Aqeedih then it is your responsibility to prove it not me to refute it. Therefore, I can confidently say that the party as a whole and the members -actually the Ummah- can prove their Aqeedih.

    Salam
    Wasalam brother

    JazakAllahu khairan for your response. What I'm actually asking for is an example of how Shabab adopt a tawatur narration be it Hadith or ijmaa' as-sahaaba(RadiAllahu 'anhum). If taqleed is not permitted then how do the Shabab avoid this?

    JazaAllahu khairan brother

  4. #24

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    Quote Originally Posted by bro-man2 View Post
    In light of your point on takfeer for rejecting matters, then do you say this verse is qati'e dalalah for taqleed being haram in creed? If you do then do you make takfeer on those who say no taqleed is permitted in creed, as this goes against this verse?

    JazakAllahu khairan
    Salaam,

    This verse along with many others make it clear that Taqleed is not permitted in matters of Belief.

  5. #25

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    Quote Originally Posted by Saifullah1924 View Post
    Salaam,

    This verse along with many others make it clear that Taqleed is not permitted in matters of Belief.
    Wasalam my dear brother:

    1-so those who say taqleed is permitted have gone against the qati'e dalalah ayaat of Qur'an so the hizb and/or individual Shabab do takfeer of them?

    2-can you give an example of how you have adopted mutawatir Hadith/ijmaa' as-sahaaba(radiAllahu 'anhum) without taqleed?

    JazakAllahu khairan brother

  6. #26

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    Quote Originally Posted by bro-man2 View Post
    Wasalam my dear brother:

    2-can you give an example of how you have adopted mutawatir Hadith/ijmaa' as-sahaaba(radiAllahu 'anhum) without taqleed?

    JazakAllahu khairan brother
    Will get back to you on point 1 inshaAllah.

    As for the above point, Ijma as-Sahaba is a source of Shariah ie Not part of Aqeedah. This adoption is based on verses of Quran which praise Sahaba (ra) collectively, as well ad numerous hadith.
    Mutawatir Hadith's are taken into Belief because it agrees with the Rationale (daleel aqliya). Multiple narrations all saying same thing, exactly same subject etc.
    As you know the Quran's verses are Mutawatir.

  7. #27

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    Quote Originally Posted by bro-man2 View Post
    Wasalam my dear brother:

    1-so those who say taqleed is permitted have gone against the qati'e dalalah ayaat of Qur'an so the hizb and/or individual Shabab do takfeer of them?

    JazakAllahu khairan brother
    Salaam

    If a person has Islamic aqeeda, he is a muslim even if he has adopted the aqeeda by Taqleed. Although he will be sinful for doing Taqleed in aqeeda. So he is not a kafir.

    Similarly one who says taqleed is allowed in aqeeda, he will be in one of the following catagories:
    1. If he has a daleel (however weak) it will be considered an Islamic Opinion but a weak one.
    2. If he does not have a daleel, it will be considered a non Islamic Opinion but still he will be a muslim because he believes in Islamic Aqeeda.

  8. #28

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    Quote Originally Posted by Saifullah1924 View Post
    Will get back to you on point 1 inshaAllah.
    InnshaAllah

    As for the above point, Ijma as-Sahaba is a source of Shariah ie Not part of Aqeedah. This adoption is based on verses of Quran which praise Sahaba (ra) collectively, as well ad numerous
    Hold on, there was a discussion on the issue of the ahadith of wailing as part of lamenting the dead and it was said the naqd of A'isha(RadiAllahu 'Anha) on this 'aqeedah point was ijmaa as-sahaaba(RadiAllahu 'anhum) this is a common example given by the shabab which I think originates from a q&a, secondly ijmaa' as-sahaaba(RadiAllahu 'anhum) is used as various points of qat'iyyat like khatam an-Nabuwwah ('alayhi as-salaatu was-salaam) and the Nabuwwah of 'Adam - 'alayhi as-salaam, so yes it actually is a source of 'aqeedah and used regularly! Infact have a look at books such as Maratib al-Ijmaa' of Ibn Hazm and others

    Mutawatir Hadith's are taken into Belief because it agrees with the Rationale (daleel aqliya). Multiple narrations all saying same thing, exactly same subject etc.
    As you know the Quran's verses are Mutawatir.
    I agree brother, what I'm asking is how do you accept a mutawatir Hadith? What procedure are you to go through without resorting to taqleed?

    JazakAllahu khairan akhee

    Quote Originally Posted by Observer View Post
    Salaam
    Wasalam my brother I pray you are well alhamdulillah

    If a person has Islamic aqeeda, he is a muslim even if he has adopted the aqeeda by Taqleed. Although he will be sinful for doing Taqleed in aqeeda. So he is not a kafir.

    Similarly one who says taqleed is allowed in aqeeda, he will be in one of the following catagories:
    1. If he has a daleel (however weak) it will be considered an Islamic Opinion but a weak one.
    2. If he does not have a daleel, it will be considered a non Islamic Opinion but still he will be a muslim because he believes in Islamic Aqeeda.
    JazakAllahu khairan brother, so to confirm a person can go against the qati'e verse prohibiting taqleed in creed by allowing taqleed in creed but that won't make him apostate? If so Why is that the case?

    BarakAllahu feek brother!

  9. #29

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    Quote Originally Posted by Abdul-A View Post
    broman2 lets be honest because I don't recall any denial that tawatur was not present prior before the 5th century. The brother was talking about the tawatur manawi had not been discussed before this and accepted that surkhasi may have discussed this in the 4th century after a brother made reference to him having taken mutawatir manawi to take ijmah alummah.

    your quotes have not discussed the idea of manawi by name or in concept which still supports the stance that manawi has not been discussed until later centuries and it is known the subject is not found in the books of imam shafi for example.
    Sarakhsi died around 490AD so makes him 5th century too.
    Seek Knowledge from the Cradle to the Grave

  10. #30

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    Quote Originally Posted by bro-man2 View Post
    Wasalam my dear brother:

    1-so those who say taqleed is permitted have gone against the qati'e dalalah ayaat of Qur'an so the hizb and/or individual Shabab do takfeer of them?

    2-can you give an example of how you have adopted mutawatir Hadith/ijmaa' as-sahaaba(radiAllahu 'anhum) without taqleed?

    JazakAllahu khairan brother
    salam

    reply to question with question isnt proof of taqleed being halal in aqeedah and is weakest form of argument.

    ijma sahaba from clear cut verse of quran praising all sahaba collectively establishing they together truthful and trustful. Allah protected the deen through them because they preserved the quran. Bot these things prove ijma sahaba is definite from the quran and in meaning.

    [9-100] ?The vanguards and the first from among the Muhajireen and the Ansar, and those who followed them in all the goods deeds, Allah is well pleased with them as they are with Him, and He prepared for them gardens.

    [15-9] "We have without doubt sent down the Qur?an and We will assuredly protect it."
    Seek Knowledge from the Cradle to the Grave

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