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Thread: Scholars who made Manawi basis for Aqeedah

  1. #91
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    Quote Originally Posted by bro-man2 View Post
    Salam brother
    Yes it is. However this has been disputed by some people who tried to use Mujtahid as a shahid for this rejection.
    What al-'ashari mentioned was the tawatur ahadith on the topic.
    They were rejecting the existence of tawatur lafdhee and that they didn't see enough reports to reach the threshold to establish tawatur. Rather all the akhbar were ahaad for them. This was disputed by Ibn hajar however saying they must not have known about the various routes for the ahadith but this would be far fetched for muhaditheen of the calibre of Ibn hibban and al-Hazimi. Al-Lucknawi mentioned their rejection was only for tawatur lafdhee not mutawatir manawi.
    Wa Allahu a'lam
    SalamAlaykum Wr Wb

    Regardless of what people attempted the vision of Allah(swt) has been established in the Quran. Is Ashari(rh) referring to the hadith your deduction; or has he given an indication in the text quoted that he is in fact making reference to Hadith? Either way the discussion is academic as ru'yah is established in the Quran. As for intercession; can you please expand, was Abu Bakr (rh) referring to the intercession of the Prophets? The Angels? Or Rasul Allah (saw)? And Insha Allah then I can get back to you on that with an appropriate response. Ibn Hajar (rh)'s position seems a lot more weighty to me, he (rh) would have also had knowledge of the calibre of Muhaditheen they were but obviously he held the position that they were not familiar with the various routes for certain ahadith. I lean towards this as mutawattur (lafdhee) rationally eliminates the possibility of collusion, and the only way Muhaddith of the calibre of Ibn Hibban (rh) and Hazimi (rh) would have classified all ahadith as ahad is if they were not familiar with the many chains that existed for certain ahadith (such as 'he who lies against me').

    Allah Knows Best.
    "You must speak the truth for the truth leads to virtue and virtue leads to Paradise....Keep away from the lie for the lie leads to evil and evil leads to the Hell Fire..."

    Muslim

  2. #92

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    Quote Originally Posted by Analyst View Post
    SalamAlaykum Wr Wb

    Regardless of what people attempted the vision of Allah(swt) has been established in the Quran. Is Ashari(rh) referring to the hadith your deduction; or has he given an indication in the text quoted that he is in fact making reference to Hadith? Either way the discussion is academic as ru'yah is established in the Quran. As for intercession; can you please expand, was Abu Bakr (rh) referring to the intercession of the Prophets? The Angels? Or Rasul Allah (saw)? And Insha Allah then I can get back to you on that with an appropriate response.
    Walaikum as-salaam wa Rahmatullahi wa Barakatuhu brother

    1-al-'ash'ari was referring to the ahadith as tawatur. These ahadith are all ahaad. He lists them in his ibana and in addition to this he established ru'yah from the Qur'an also. However the point stand that he used the collective of the narrations as tawatur.

    2-with regards Ibn abi al-'asim I will have a look later today and get back to you.
    3-al-Tabari reference also shows that tawatur was used for the collective of ahaad denoting one meaning as tawatur in the first 3 generations.

    Wa Allahu a'lam

    Ibn Hajar (rh)'s position seems a lot more weighty to me, he (rh) would have also had knowledge of the calibre of Muhaditheen they were but obviously he held the position that they were not familiar with the various routes for certain ahadith. I lean towards this as mutawattur (lafdhee) rationally eliminates the possibility of collusion, and the only way Muhaddith of the calibre of Ibn Hibban (rh) and Hazimi (rh) would have classified all ahadith as ahad is if they were not familiar with the many chains that existed for certain ahadith (such as 'he who lies against me').

    Allah Knows Best.

    Again this is an assumption at best and does not negate the fact that the reality is there were some muhaditheen who saw the lafdhee as rare and some who saw it as non-existent as the threshold to reach tawatur was not reached and hence they saw all the Akhbaar as ahaad. And this is an issue of ijtihaad.

    Quote Originally Posted by ibn hibban
    .
    However as was also clarified by the likes of as-Suyuti, Ibn hajar and al-Lucknawi amongst others, this was not about them rejecting mutawatir's existence in totality but rather they were only referring to tawatur lafdhee not tawatur manawi:

    Quote Originally Posted by al-Lucknawi
    But how about this from al-Lucknawi in his dhufr al-Amaani sharh mukhtasar al-Jurjani
    "From them the hadeeth of the pond... What many of the researchers have concluded is that the difference is merely in semantics. So those who affirmed the existence of mutawatir reports intended by that mutawatir ma'nawi, as it is clear from the examples they have mentioned. And those who affirmed its inexistence, or rarity thereof, he meant by it al-mutawatir al-lafdhi, for there does not exist any particular hadeeth where all the conditions of tawatur have been fulfilled."


    So what Lucknawi mentioned is important to clarify the statements of the mutaqadimeen with regard tawatur also to show how we know the type of tawatur from the examples used

    Wa Allahu a'lam

  3. #93

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    Originally Posted by Ibn_Badr
    Ok, let's take one of these examples. Angels. How does the layman who does not understand Arabic 'decisively assent' to the existence of angels? What is his evidence? Can he do it without taqleed at some level?
    This means that when we are commanded to have iman in angels then we will not be able to because we are 'non arab'. Iman by definition has to be decisive and doing taqleed would mean uncertainty.

    According to your argument we can't believe in Allah (swt) decisively and also the command in which Allah (swt) tells us to have iman, we can't even establish that with certainty (because we are doing taqleed).

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